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Benise
Jun 13, 2004 0:59:30 GMT -5
Post by Adam Solomon on Jun 13, 2004 0:59:30 GMT -5
Perhaps this thread doesn't belong in the "Bullfighter's Dream" forum, described as "Talk about flamenco artists BESIDES OTTMAR here." But, they have different names, so perhaps they are indeed different people. Anyway, go to www.benise.com, + PLEASE tell me he's not copying OL in every way imaginable. LOL...it's actually quite funny, except it's true. Nouveau Flamenco. Spanish Nights. Rosanegra. Snake Charmer. Please tell me he did NOT copy OL...especially after listening to those samples, lol...Luna Flamenca, especially, is a numerous OL songs combined w/ a weak attempt to disguise it. Oh, and "Angels", the Christmas album...a Christmas album with "Angels" in the title, + almost an exactly identical tracklisting to that of OL's album. Perhaps OL is releasing music under another name, now?
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Benise
Jun 14, 2004 7:34:08 GMT -5
Post by boris on Jun 14, 2004 7:34:08 GMT -5
OL once pointed out the same in his blog. He has no links to Benise + was annoyed by this. It is copying.
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Benise
Jun 15, 2004 2:04:26 GMT -5
Post by Carolynn on Jun 15, 2004 2:04:26 GMT -5
Boris, we are lucky to have your memory on our side. I knew that OL had mentioned a copy-cat person in the blog, but I couldn't remember if it was this Benise guy or not. Yes, I remember listening to a few seconds of the music on the web site. I wasn't overly impressed.
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Benise
Jun 15, 2004 10:21:48 GMT -5
Post by Adam Solomon on Jun 15, 2004 10:21:48 GMT -5
Boris does have quite the memory I actually found this while looking through a bunch of older entries the other night, lol...just wanted to bring it up again, especially since OL forgot to mention the biggest rip-off--look at that Christmas album!!!
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Benise
Jul 27, 2004 15:23:17 GMT -5
Post by Bob on Jul 27, 2004 15:23:17 GMT -5
I've seen Ron Benise play live many times. His live show and group is incredible and he sounds nothing like OL live.
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Benise
Jul 27, 2004 15:34:25 GMT -5
Post by boris on Jul 27, 2004 15:34:25 GMT -5
What do you mean by saying "nothing like OL"? Just different? You must have seen both so you feel being able to judge, to come here to this forum + make this one and only statement! I wasn't able to see either of them. And nobody said anything about Benise performing live. All we said is that what he offers on his web site looks pretty much like copying. Not very inventive. That's all. But I'm sure that everybody in this forum is open-minded enough to change his opinion when there's a reason to. The moment I get a hand on one of Benise's CDs I'll listen to his music + then I'll see...
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Benise
Jul 27, 2004 15:45:50 GMT -5
Post by Bob on Jul 27, 2004 15:45:50 GMT -5
Actually, I know Ron Benise (not that this is relevant or anything). His CDs can be compared to OL. I can hear similarities. My point is that Ron's live show is very different than the music on his website and very different than OL's live shows. The key to Ron's success is his live shows and not really his website.
By the way, I'm a huge fan of OL. After all, he did spark a whole new generation and style of guitar players.
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Benise
Jul 27, 2004 16:06:50 GMT -5
Post by boris on Jul 27, 2004 16:06:50 GMT -5
Understood. And checked it. No possibility to get Benise's stuff where I live. Even amazon.com has nothing. That's a difference to most of OL's merchandise... And what the rest is concerned: don't like ordering on private web sites without knowing anything. Need to trust. Would like to listen into a CD the normal way first. So I have to wait to get a true impression. But Bob, if you know Benise: why do all titles and names sound so similar / nearly identical to what OL has done (long ago in some cases)? This couldn't just be coincidence, could it? Make it clearer for us.
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Benise
Jul 27, 2004 17:29:55 GMT -5
Post by Bob on Jul 27, 2004 17:29:55 GMT -5
It's all about Marketing. If you go to www.riaa.comand search the Gold & Platinum Database using Ottmar's name, you'll see that he is, hands down, the biggest selling solo guitar player in history. I think over the years guitar players have discovered this huge market that OL opened up in the early 90s. In this process many of them have borrowed from OL and been successful at it. About 5 years ago Ron recorded his first flamenco CD. Within a couple of years he was able to sell out a 2,000 seat theater at 50 to 60 bucks a seat without a record company. He accomplished this just through live performances. And yes, he may have borrowed ideas from OL, but all musicians are influenced by other great musicians. OL is the "Hendrix" and Benise is the "Stevie Ray". It's nice talkin' with you Boris. Take care, Bob
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Benise
Jul 27, 2004 20:19:16 GMT -5
Post by Adam Solomon on Jul 27, 2004 20:19:16 GMT -5
Marketing? Isn't music supposed to be about...um....originality?
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Victor
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Benise
Jul 27, 2004 20:52:11 GMT -5
Post by Victor on Jul 27, 2004 20:52:11 GMT -5
Gee, do I dare jump into the "Benise controversy"? I mean, reading this thread makes me wonder if it's worse for a Fanmenco to have skeletons in their closet or Benise in their closet! Truth be told, I don't have any skeletons in my closet but I do have some Benise in my closet - not because I'm hiding them, just because that's where I keep all my CD's.
Anyway, here's my "2-cents"... I doubt any self-respecting artist blatantly copies other artists. Maybe I'm naive in thinking that - I'm certainly not an artist. I'd be curious to see what Ottmar said about somebody ripping him off.
In any case, I've sampled a lot of different "nouveau flamenco" type artists and I've seen similar sounding names used for songs and album titles. What I think is that basically since this is a "pseudo-Spanish" artform people tend to use the same words that conjure up images of Spain (or at least a romantic notion of Spain). Like trying to name 100 things using a 10 word vocabulary (if you will).
Same for artists sounding similar. There's the influence factor and there's also the "pseudo-Spanish" factor. What sounds Spanish or "flamenco-ish" to us is probably only a small slice of what Spanish music really is. Musical themes tend to get recycled in all genres - sometimes for better sometimes for worse.
Anyway, I own Benise's "Spanish Nights" CD and also "Mediterranea". The music in each carries a theme throughout. I like them both.
(Adam, if you're going to boot me then do it now - quick and painless if possible!)
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Benise
Jul 27, 2004 23:18:26 GMT -5
Post by Adam Solomon on Jul 27, 2004 23:18:26 GMT -5
/me boots Victor! * lol...Victor, don't listen to that Kiyomi I'm not the big bad admin going around booting everyone. Only if you make mean comments about the admin's physical appearance Now, a question, Victor, owning these two CDs...how OLish does he sound? It sounded pretty similar on the site's demo tracks, but that doesn't show you much I just find the naming of his songs to be BLATANTLY ripping off OL, even besides the whole "Nouveau Flamenco" thing...Spanish Nights? Rosanegra? Snake Charmer? Look at his Christmas album, Angels, and try to tell me he wasn't at least "inspired" by OL for that....it at least seems a bit fishy to me, is all I'm saying
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Victor
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Benise
Jul 28, 2004 8:39:06 GMT -5
Post by Victor on Jul 28, 2004 8:39:06 GMT -5
Ouch - did I just feel a boot hitting me?! At least it was relatively painless! ;D
Adam, I hear what you're saying about all the similar sounding names. I'd like to think that it's more of a coincidence rather than taken from a chapter of "How to Market Nouveau Flamenco Music." Do artists think about marketing as part of their creative process? Where is the line drawn between "I'd like to create work that's appealing to the audience" vs. "I'm doing my own thing whether people like it or not." I think we all prefer our art to be inspired rather than manufactured. Hopefully, time will be the true test of what's good and what's not - but then "elevator music" is still around - so there goes that theory.
However, I'm also not saying that Benise is "manufactured." I actually think his sound, at least, is unique. To try and categorize it I'd say it's kind of "Gypsy guitar" with a bit of rock and roll style. But maybe other people will say it sounds like somebody else. (I dunno, I always think I see people who look like a famous actor/actress but my wife almost always disagrees!)
Well, I guess the one thing we all agree on at this forum is that we like what Ottmar is doing! Aside from that our musical tastes probably vary quite a bit.
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Benise
Jul 28, 2004 12:18:34 GMT -5
Post by Adam Solomon on Jul 28, 2004 12:18:34 GMT -5
I guess the style is different if you say so, I haven't listened to enough But I think that that naming crosses the line in terms of marketing...lol...I guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, though (even if you DO try to make money with it ). And yes, we all do love our OL A lot of rockers here, too....
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Benise
Jul 28, 2004 12:27:18 GMT -5
Post by Bob on Jul 28, 2004 12:27:18 GMT -5
I agree with you guys. being original is a great thing when it comes to being a musician.
on the other hand, for musicians like Ron Benise, who make their living playing music and selling their CDs, the elements of marketing are very important.
For example, when Ron plays a street fair and the only money he will make for the 4 hour gig is from the CDs he sells, he has a choice. He can be completely original and take the risk of not selling many CDs or he can play a style of music that is familiar to people and will sell, for sure. New Flamenco has a good size market in California.
what Ron has done over the past few years is evolve his sound into something that is still New Flamenco but also his own (elements of Rock, etc..). When you see him live, it's clear. You wont really get this from his website.
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